File: C:/xampp/mysql/Win7BackUp/data/wordpress/wp_comments.MYD
��� K Tony [email protected]
212.72.211.38� ��E 1䓩E Hi :)
If I understand your post correctly, you explain how to create a FOGRA MW3 target for the ProfileMaker.
Will you please explain the steps required in English because I do not understand exactly the process of combining the content of the two files.
Thanks in advance1aMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032608 Firefox/3.0.8 �@ �
Administrator[email protected]http://
60.248.9.2Ih{�E �/z�E � Thanks,
I've check up the website and yes its a good idea to have a "reference" in hand, just wonder what will be the tolerance and how much will it cost to re-calibrate the eye-one?1�Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 1.1.4322) � � �O W RYErnest[email protected]http://www.eks-tury.ru
69.124.252.76!���C �U��C / Nice post u have here :D Added to my RSS reader1"Opera/9.01 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en) m��
Fred H.[email protected] 129.21.220.241�$دE u�֯E �For T-Ref, the reading from a densitometer needs to read all targets (cmyk+ paper) within the greater of 0.02 or 2% of the reference number.
Regard to Lab-Ref (cmyk+paper+8 other colors), the average dEab(76) between the reading from a colorimeter and the reference needs to be less than 0.6. The maximum dEab needs to be less than 1.1.
Sorry, I don't know what the cost is to have X-Rite recalibrate the Eye-One Pro but you may like to contact X-Rite in Asia for further information. I work in an education institute in US and normally we send our instruments back to X-Rite for re-calibration every year. Luckily X-Rite covers the cost most of the time.
By the way, you have a great blog!1aMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042315 Firefox/3.0.10 @ � K
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1���E �C��E R I think this is what you want.
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=354#more-3541ZMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8 � 2�� � Fred H.[email protected] 129.21.220.241)RدE �ׯE { It's on this month's (May) Fogra News, in case if you haven't received it. Congratulations!
www.fogra.org/Fogra_News.pdf1aMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042315 Firefox/3.0.10 ���
Fred H.[email protected] 129.21.220.241AZm�E �!l�E � You can buy Lab-Ref and T-Ref to verify your measurement devices. If the measurements are out of the tolerances, you may want to send your Eye-one back to X-Rite for re-calibration.
http://www.printtools.org/product/term/1571aMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042315 Firefox/3.0.10 ��S
恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku
60.248.207.98�q��C &9��C � 這樣的問題我也有感覺，我們公司有兩部色度儀，一部是eye-one，另一部是手持績分球式色度儀，對相同色塊測量出來的色差也有1~2個Delta-E的色差，實在不知道哪個才是標準？1>Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; InfoPath.1) � @ T
Administrator [email protected]http://122.116.194.250E ��C �ӕ�C � 照說積分球應該比較準，不過效率太差了，你要不要試試將你的eye-One跟積分球做一下Simple regression，這樣你可以有eye-One的效能而且能有積分球的精確度，eye-one的精確度真的是無解！1ZMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.5) Gecko/2008120122 Firefox/3.0.5 S 3�V
恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku
60.248.207.82����E 4���E � 謝謝~~這是一個好方法，找出兩者的線性關係做轉換，最近我就來試試看，希望i-one的的不精確是固定的。1>Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; InfoPath.1) �@ �
Administrator[email protected]http://
60.248.9.2#=�E ��E �
from ptri.
http://www.ptri.org.tw/netlibrary/BookIntro980121.htm
第28頁
標題：How Accurate Are Your Spectrophotometers?
貴公司的分光光度儀有多準確？
作者：Flexo
印刷產業的品質評估主要係使用分光光度儀，也使用此儀器來檢驗生產過程，而客戶則用它來評估印件的接受度。當品質的要求一年比一年嚴格時，分光光度儀便是決定印件接受度的主要設備。美國佛蘭芒圖文傳統創新中心（VIGC）對相關設備的準確性做了一項研究，發現delta E的偏差值大到4！
彩色品質是印刷業最大的挑戰，印刷公司一直都在設法使彩色能符合客戶的要求，而客戶也用此種儀器決定印件的接受與否。由於它是測量彩色品質相當重要的設備，因此其穩定性應處於最佳狀態，但往往並非如此。
經過體驗幾種不同設備之後，VIGC於2007年夏天首先開始測試以比較多台設備，來看看該中心使用分光光度儀之間的偏差，之後，設計了一套檢查和比較設備的做法，該中心使用GretagMacBeth NetProfiler測試圖作為參考。使用經過驗證的測試圖來表述不同色塊的L*a*b*值，並在理想的情況下使用三台分光光度儀來測量。此項驗證僅於12個月內有效，因此每年需要更新。於是用不同的分光光度儀測量測試圖上的13個色塊，其中二個色塊用以測量儀器的反覆性。
去年，VIGC測試了20台不同設備，多數是印刷公司目前與VIGC合作使用之中，這與過去類似較小的研究不同，其他研究所使用的設備是直接從供應商取得，VIGC測試的設備不在此範圍內，是在產業中由公司以每日使用的為基礎。這在日常生活中給那些分光光度儀的功能非常有趣的概觀。
那些性能並非人們所認為的，當某客戶要求最大的delta E值為2時，在比利時經常是指高品質印件，想要有台設備盡可能準確地測量色彩。然而，VIGC研究顯示某特定色彩的偏差可高到3.77的delta E值。平均而言，所有13個色塊的每台儀器偏差值是1.56。
在研究中，VIGC遇到同類型或同品牌的多個設備。在類型、品牌和準確性之間有無關聯呢？是個有趣的問題，但有個原則是：設備越新表現越好，用了幾年後的設備，有時第一台可取得好結果而第二台則否，而公司本身的分光光度儀，使用NetProfiler圖經常從事校準，是所有中最佳的。另一台設備同品牌同類型，幾乎是同年齡，表現則相當差。
本文敘述分光光度儀在使用中是否經常校準，對測量印品的準確度有很大的關係，讀者請參閱原文以瞭解全部內容。1\Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042316 Firefox/3.0.10 � �@ �
Administrator[email protected]http://
60.248.9.2m��E �P�E � Thanks again, great information. I shall ask x-Rite vendors here in Taiwan to read this thread and see how they react.
And thanks for you "great blog" compliment; but from the visitor counter, it didn't seem so great ;)1\Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042316 Firefox/3.0.10 � 2�� M pig7012[email protected]
61.222.218.67�� �E 5� �E � Kuo顧問您好：
想請教一下我如果要畫出像您這篇文章所述的色域圖需要測量印刷品的哪些資料？謝謝！1ZMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8 �@ � M
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1��,�E '~+�E + CMYRGB的a*,b*值,用Excel 繪圖(scatter).1ZMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8 � �@ 6 �
Administrator[email protected] 192.168.2.1��W�E V�E �就 Fogra PSO 程序而言，數據已經夠清楚了(目標值及寬容值)，就看做不做而已。
材料商 (material & machine)願不願意配合？
印刷廠夠不夠力施壓要材料商配合？
印刷買主有沒有sense 接受 by number 的驗收方式(同時接受寬容度的差距)？
技術方面其實沒那麼難，也不見得要花很多錢，撇開材料問題，TVI其實蠻好搞定的，另外就是控墨的穩定度，就看各家印刷廠的本事了。1qMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.0.14) Gecko/2009082707 Firefox/3.0.14 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729) 5 !�Y N makem[email protected]
60.248.35.118�B� H Y
� H Y如果這是學生的作業或是研究標的絕對是利益良善，可能還會有困難度存在。
要應用在實際的生產線是要絕對的精確，ㄧ個過程的瑕疵會造成下個流程良率降低的。
如果設備昂貴可以逐步或少量使用，正確而精準數據更是重要色別是在色彩交換的工作。
謝謝1xMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/531.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.3 Safari/531.9 �� > johndy[email protected]
60.248.35.118� iH ]�gH �基本上這些提出的回覆，聚焦在問題的解決的程度已經是專案改善報告。
就現行配合檔案製作管理公司（premedia) 的執行管理流程做以下的敘述；
ISO以外的色彩標的全部更換成ISO的標準格式 ex. ISOcoatedv2_to_Japan2001_Coated
所有的色彩標準 ISOcoated_v2基準，ex. ISOcatedv2_to_uncoated_TAC280
RGB的作業有 Adobe 1998, sRGB, ECIRGB 在轉換到 ISOcated, uncoated, newspaper三種紙張。
最難的執行面上就是機器的線性調整各家的線性落差很大，如果色彩有較大的爭議時就採用 Monitor 視覺打樣
多方會同現場比對（大部分的廠商很少會設置這樣的設備）。
以上到目前比較少爭議的流程，需要的改進點還是很多，到實際生產單位就會有諸多的理由來為色彩誤差找出合理的藉口，問題還是人。（不徹底的執行還隱匿可用的技術，打混來爭取更多的加班）1xMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/533.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.1 Safari/533.16 A@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1M�'H
7�'H n謝謝回應。
提出次規格的欲意就在於降低"Print by Number"的運作門檻；包括成本上的門檻及材料上的門檻；技術上的要求並未縮水。
現今拿一次Fogra PSO 不包括內部的材料及人力消耗，光付給德國的費用就將近40萬台幣；"40萬"是個多大的門檻?各有認知不同；我想印刷廠老闆願意拿出40萬去拿一個國際認證是有的，但40萬丟出去後拿到認證的機率是多少?尤其就國內的材料?想想就算了吧!
基於上述問題，這個次規格的定位不是Certification 也不是 Qualification， 它就是個 Practice:一個簡單快速的自我練習而已；數字規則就如原PO所示，工具部分還在發展，已經有了想法，大約再2,3個星期吧?到時再檢驗其可行性及施行規則。
另這裡重點會是在ISO 12647-2(平印,先做Type 1 paper))的次規格演練；你提的數位印刷、GMG回饋及平均色差等當屬ISO 12647-7(數位印刷)的討論。
同樣的邏輯；降低門檻會是擴大參予的一種重要做法；你要不要試著報一下你們數位印刷機加上GMG的建制成本?我還在思考著桌上型三四千元的噴墨印表機(最基礎的數位印刷)加上每cc3元的副廠墨水，在不經由RIP的情況下，如何進入ISO 12647-7的另一個合理的次規格。有空會再整理這方面的資料另行發文。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101026 Firefox/3.6.12 GTB7.1 � � �� � insan[email protected]
118.161.133.5~3�H >b�H � FRED兄
可以跟您要目前使用的
Argyll CMS+discalGUI
的版本和設定嗎
msn :[email protected]
因為文包兄介紹的版本比現在舊很多，我的環境也是
win7 64 +colormunki
但一直無法正常動作1XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 ��# � 黃俊彰 [email protected]http://www.melchers.com.tw
114.45.161.22I���G Ʉ��G "德商 美最時 貿易股份有限公司
地址：104 台北市林森北路380號9樓
電話：02-25513264 分機 302
傳真：02-25513260
聯絡人：黃俊彰 先生
[email protected]
行動電話：0922006105
統一編號：86926677
公司網站：www.melchers.com.tw1TMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2) Gecko/20100115 Firefox/3.6 �3 � [Fred Kuo :: Blog » Blog Archive » 萬元以下數位打樣系統 – Take-1 *http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=590 192.168.2.1���G K�G " [...] 軟打樣啟動 Take-1 [...]12The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/2.9.2pingback�g N Dot-M[email protected] 118.168.20.146��FH "gEH \ 謝謝
詢問過那裡，但是客戶要 Kodak的ctp
還有別的可以告訴我
regards,1XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100625 Firefox/3.6.6 @ h N
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1C dH ��bH N 彩峰好像是用Kodak的ctp，試試看吧。
http://www.rainbow-art.com.tw/1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100625 Firefox/3.6.6 GTB7.0 g @ ' �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1JH�G ��G F 黃先生的工作跟印刷油墨相關嗎?或許可以交流一下。1gMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100202 Firefox/3.5.8 GTBDFff GTB7.0 #
@ ~ >
Administrator[email protected]http://60.250.156.142YYH � XH 9理論上是有解的，但實際上很難要那麼多人一起配合，所以還是無解。 就紙上談兵唄。
1.像A報社的紙色很多和塗佈差異很大有執行上難度。
<ol>
理論上每一種紙都要做icc profile，但profile 太多對內部管理及外部交流可能又造成更大問題，A報社可考慮推出一個代表性Profile，其他紙張用"對齊灰色平衡中央伍"的概念，修正RIP曲線以達到視覺一致。</ol>
2.國外來稿色樣標準多樣性 ISO,GARCoL,SWOP,SNAP,Japan 在打樣階段是沒有大的問題，在實際
印刷色差就很大。(機器設定值很難更動)
<ol>
ISO2Apple.link, Gracol2Apple.link, SWOP2Apple.link, SNAP2Applelink, Japan2Apple.link， 機器設定不動，5個link 搞定。</ol>
3.要製作良好的printer profile 印刷廠多數不俱備製作修正能力。
<ol>
我還是比較建議印刷廠走一個ISO程序，客戶端統一用ISO官方profile就可以了，各家印刷廠一直做自己的profile 也不是辦法。</ol>
4.部分的檔案需要多次轉換(color convert, saving ink etc)比較不適合使用pistop。
<ol>
Pitstop 有 server 版，可用 hotfolder 去串連你的需求。</ol>
從事媒體相關連工作報紙，雜誌，戶外廣告的色彩必須大致相等對工作才可交代，委外製作公司
的層次不一要達到標準還是蠻困難
<ol>
"灰色平衡中央伍對齊"，不需要做 ICC prfile，只要動一下RIP曲線，對"視覺一致"有很大幫助。</ol>
反正就紙上談兵，交流一下。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 } �d N Dot-M[email protected]
60.248.35.118��6H wI5H _ Dear Kuo,
我想請問在中和那裡有可以輸出 10微米 FM網點的公司。
謝謝1]Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100625 Firefox/3.6.6 X @ e N
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1W87H �5H � 可以跟科億詢問一下
地址
中和總公司:台北縣中和市立德街123號2樓(MIT3)
聯絡電話
中和總公司 02-222689051_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.6) Gecko/20100625 Firefox/3.6.6 GTB7.0 d 9�2 � egles[email protected]
60.248.35.118�{G�E ACF�E h 數字因為人而向上，企業的本質在落實人性。
求真的人才會穩定的創造真理。1~Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1 �5 � yam jean hu[email protected] 118.168.20.175�,T�E �[G�E q這些數據資料應該是機材商的交貨和採購廠商的驗貨基本標準。
1.CTP版進廠時不同的批號就要測試到規定Linear。(ex50-50 or 50-47 )
2.噴墨紙或墨水採購時就必須要有 Fogra certified.的品質
3.印刷機置入當時就必須按 PSO 標準驗收
4.一開始就要做，事後再做就晚了一會，成本也會增加。1XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.1.3) Gecko/20090824 Firefox/3.5.3 �@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.10]�H �H -你好
我的 Argyll 版本為V1.1.1， 官方最新版為<a href="http://www.argyllcms.com/Argyll_V1.2.1_win32_exe.zip" rel="nofollow">V1.2.1</a>
我的 discalGUI 版本為0.3.1.0 ， 官方最新版為<a href="http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/dispcalGUI-0.5.8.1-Setup.exe" rel="nofollow">0.5.8.1</a>
設定<a href="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DispCal_SEt.jpg" rel="nofollow">如下</a>
我是遵照印刷業規範，跟攝影業或有不同。另我的環境是win7 32 +colormunki， win7 64 的環境我並未試過。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 �
� @ � N
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1�o "H f7 "H � Spetro eye? 我也想要有一隻，它是很準，但用來做 profile 會不會太辛苦。
<ol>
<li>(1)依照您在文章中的流程，是在PHOTOSHP中依據ISO Coated V2 的標準，將檔案轉換成CMYK型態列印，如此會不會有二次轉換而造成顏色偏差的風險?
因為坊間一般的說法是中低階的噴墨印表機呈像方式是接收RGB訊號，再經由其內部機制轉換成CMYK輸出呈像；在PHOTOSHOP的手冊中也建議直接使用 RGB的模式列印，不要轉換成CMYK列印，除非有搭配RIP使用，否則經過二次(photoshop及印表機內部)的轉換，容易造成色彩的偏差。</li></ol>
沒有二次轉換的問題；不管高低階印表機，只要不掛RIP或不掛postscript， 一定是RGB printer(其內部的RGB2CMYK table我們就不管了)。Photoshop 是唯一 CS 軟體在RGB printer 還能支援 CMYK profile 的軟體。
<ol>
(2)如果是不經RIP來作打樣，像總墨量、GCR等分色參數若有調整的必要，要在那裡調整呢?可否在藉由PHOTOSHOP中的「自訂CMYK」來調整，或是在製作ICCPROFILE時，就應納入這些分色參數，分別製作不同參數設定的iccprofile?
因為根據坊間的說法，數位打樣一般是要搭配RIP的，因為如此方能對印表機取得較大的控制，才能調整如總墨量、GCR等分色參數。</ol>
既然是RGB Priner，也就沒有總墨量、GCR等分色參數的調整參數，找到適當的紙張來呈現色RGB printer 的色彩會是重要的工作關鍵。
<ol>
2.學生使用PROFILE MAKER觀察epson原廠的印表機描述檔，發現他的色域是rgb，請問使用COLOR MUNKI所製作的EPSON1390描述檔，其色域是rgb或cmyk呢?
因為根據profile maker 的廠商建議，如果是用在直接列印，可以用內建的rgb型態的測試導表來製作；但是如果是以「打樣」為目的，則建議用cmyk型態的測試導表來製作iccprofile。</ol>
同上，廠商附的Profile基本上都是RGB profile； Colormunki 做的profile 是 RGB profile；CMYK profile 會有更多的控制參數，相對於RGB profile在"打樣"上是更容易控制；目前Photoshop 是唯一 CS 軟體在RGB printer 還能支援 CMYK profile 的軟體，但我的重點會在PDF，目前Acrobat還未能在RGB printer 支援 CMYK profile；所以我只好還在 RGB profile打轉；雖然如此，我的RGB profile 還是可以在 print media 2006 的規範下達到平均色差4以下的水準。
以上，有問題可繼續討論。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � �@ [ N
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1l�� H ,�� H �其實目前數位打樣軟體非常成熟，但建置成本很高，對一般平面設計的工作人員是負擔不起的；學生就更不必說了。
這裡提供一個可能性，以一般的噴墨印表機加上便宜很多的副廠墨水，能有多好的表現能力?我自己主觀的認定是可行的。
再要提的是:好的知識能力，可以追趕硬體能力的不足；沒有好的知識能力，優秀的硬體能力很有可能被浪費掉。
我是使用者(Application user)，非生產者，良率不是我的問題，而是我期待產業能夠回應我的問題，如果產業界能提供穩定且精確的(and affordable)產品，我的下一個邏輯是:經由community的合作方式，由Community提供 icc profile (base on Printer+ink+paper)，一般使用者無須購入量測儀器及軟體，只要正確使用 ICC Profile，就可以建立一個好的色彩溝通環境。
整個低價數位樣系統還必須面對的問題包括:染料墨的穩定度不夠，顏料墨的色彩表現力不足，K100黑字會被ICC程序打散，塗佈紙張成本偏高...即使問題還未完全解決，我認為(主觀的)目前的成果還是有其實際的價值。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.3) Gecko/20100401 Firefox/3.6.3 GTB7.0 Y � � x >
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1\!9H P,H 這篇已是多年前的東西了，我不確定蘋果日報現今的狀況是怎樣。我僅就本篇的內容針對你的問題加以延伸及提出一些看法，就算交流一下吧。
很合理的，你可以用ISO 12647-3來要求蘋果日報；但就台灣市場的現實環境，廣告主的力量還不足以大到要求印刷廠認真的去取得國際認證。我在2008年底協助一家年輕的印刷廠取得<a href="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=161" rel="nofollow">德國Fogra PSO</a>(12647-2)，一年半過去了，台灣那麼多印刷廠並未看到第二家Fogra PSO，也就是說，在台灣的印刷市場，ISO 12647 並未對印刷廠造成壓力。其實最直接的壓力應該來自廣告主，廣告主必須具備一、專業知識，二、足夠的預算。如果蘋果日報不聽你的，想想看妳們還缺了些什麼？(我會講太白了嗎?)
回到這篇2004年的ifra評比報告，首先，參加ifra評比並不等於得到ISO 12647-3認證。就TVI數據，擺明了就不是12647-3。我不曉得你所謂"蘋果日報白目的回覆"指是哪些東西；如果你以ISO 12647-3的觀點去要求，在蘋果日報已經擺明了不是12647-3的情況下，你所謂的"白目"好像也沒支撐的前提。這樣的情況下，使用isonewspaper26v4.icc是一個錯誤的行為，你們應該使用來自報社的 icc(有提供嗎?) 。 另外你們在<a href="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=506" rel="nofollow">顯示器</a>及<a href="http://www.inhousepod.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=38&page=1" rel="nofollow">光源</a>有適當設置嗎?
蘋果日報最外面那張紙規格還不錯，TAC是可以超過240的；Apple cmy=19 k=25 看來就是apple 的日常工作標準，再次提出，蘋果日報並未follow ISO 12647-3，TAC,SID完全走自己的程序。蘋果日報是一家強調"調子表現"甚於"色彩正確交換""的公司，而且事實上"調子"確實表現得不錯。他們電腦裡Photoshop的color table才是它們色彩轉換的核心，icc 並不是主角。
色彩管理及印刷究竟還是科學的運作，問題總是可以解決的；是"人"有沒有心要解決問題；找到對的核心人士跟找到對的問題一樣重要。
很多東西可以談，也很難簡短的交代清楚，有興趣的話，繼續交流吧。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 �@ � N
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1c��!H ���!H �先回你這些，有空再補
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一般來說，專業數位打樣要經過RIP，但成本很高，我的數位打樣沒有經過RIP，但這樣會有幾個問題:
1. 一般印表機的驅動程式是以RGB的方式來換算墨量，尤其沒有黑字K100的概念。
2. 經由應用軟體(如Adobe環境)來導入ICC工作流程時，絕大部分只支援RGB Printer profile，不支援CMYK Printer profile。
在這樣的情況下，在低階的環境下，我選擇使用RGB printer profile 流程，之後的問題是:當RGB profile 在解釋文件中K100的黑字時，黑字通常以不同組合的CMY墨來達成，如此，黑字通常顯得不夠黑，或是當icc profile 不夠精確時，黑字會以深咖啡色呈現。為修正問題，我對K100黑字部分會再做一次profile編輯。
此編輯結果只適用於單一目標，如 ISO Coated V2(ECI) 或 Japan color 2001...等，非全體適用。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � � �v > Johndy[email protected]
114.45.160.29���H ��H 有幾個新聞印刷的問題請教您
以 ISO12647-3新聞標準來說 CMYK的TVI=26 和 Apple cmy=19 k=25 有很大的落差，這是apple 的日常工作標準? 這樣的TVI值勢將提高 cmy的 SID值及TAC的總量不是更容易造成背印和增加乾燥時間。
RGB、 CMYK檔都是轉換成 isonewspaper26v4.icc 或是自社的標準 icc? TAC 設定在240還是更高?
我的工作是新聞廣告相關常常因為印刷品質的問題造成困擾，報社的回覆確是很白目實在令我無法想像。
謝謝1XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 �@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1@��H ��H 好說，謝謝了。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 � �z > johndy[email protected]
60.248.35.118
<H ��:H :感謝您詳細說明，報社的製程有的充分的認知。先說明水果的白目點pdf 1.3 certain 入搞印出來卻是像GCR1的600dpi tiff 檔而且文字不能保持住 K100%,影像的暗部的黑版去除剩下CMY三色，製作部門的回應如下因為 PDF ttrim box 以外不能有任何物件存在會影響到色彩（我就說到這裡就不再敘述）。說實在的付錢的客戶沒有意見，也沒必要跟報社的製作為難。
再說到 Photoshop Color Table 應該是 4.0版本才會用到，現在通用格式以 PDF 1.3-1.7為主都是圖文整合的方式進行色彩轉換
（CMYK2CMYK, RGB2CMYK)才能確定保持住Dmax,才能同時色彩階調正確。在 Photoshop轉換就會轉到 LAB的色域（CMYK2LAB2CMYK)在 平板印刷的紙張（type 1,2,3-----) TVI 20以內都還可以接受，TVi26就無法保持Dmax階調對比反差
就不正確，另外是CT, LW 分開處理遇到透明 Layer 就會費時很多工作效率就大幅降低，回校的次數變多了。
以上是色彩德處理經驗，有任何不同點請繼續交流1xMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/533.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.1 Safari/533.16 � @ { >
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1fHH ڔ;H �OK, 題目有比較清楚，12647-3先不談了。
1. K100% 無法保留及相關問題: "Device link" will be the answer。
2. 我提到的color table指的是"色彩設定->CMYK->自訂CMYK"，一直到 Photoshop CS 5 都有，是蘋果內部分色作業用的(強調"調子")，應該與外稿PDF作業無關，也就無關於你提的Dmax,TVI...等。至於你關心的 "色彩轉換（CMYK2CMYK, RGB2CMYK)才能確定保持住Dmax,才能同時色彩階調正確....." : "Device link" could be the answer。
3. CT, LW耗費時效?... RIP 升級?硬體升級? 改變作業方式? ... 不容易簡短回答，不過大概就這些方向吧!
我認為"device link"可解決你一大部分問題，不過目前支援較少，Photoshop CS4 開始支援 device link，但圖文整合的PDF還未被ADOBE CS 環境支援，3rd party 有 enfocus pitstop 9 及 callas pdfToolbox 4(尚不支援中文). 你可以試試看。
若方向有誤，請提出觀點，繼續交流。1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 z ��� � 恭麟[email protected]
112.78.71.148���!H 7��!H � 郭顧問好：
以下是當時通過G7時認證單位給的報告，其中我刪除了印刷設備相關數據，僅保留表格以及合格的樣張數據，僅供參考！
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VO4Y59FY1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.63 Safari/534.3 ��} > Johndy[email protected] 114.45.162.215ԐWH ��JH �大概問題應該是這樣解決在現階段的技術面上，關於devicelink我請教檔案管理製作公司有幾個問題存在:
1.像A報社的紙色很多和塗佈差異很大有執行上難度。
2.國外來稿色樣標準多樣性 ISO,GARCoL,SWOP,SNAP,Japan 在打樣階段是沒有大的問題，在實際
印刷色差就很大。(機器設定值很難更動)
3.要製作良好的printer profile 印刷廠多數不俱備製作修正能力。
4.部分的檔案需要多次轉換(color convert, saving ink etc)比較不適合使用pistop。
從事媒體相關連工作報紙，雜誌，戶外廣告的色彩必須大致相等對工作才可交代，委外製作公司
的層次不一要達到標準還是蠻困難。1XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 >@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1�K�H I�H m謝謝分享。
我以Fogra PSO的觀點從幾個方面請教G7認證:
1. 費用:我們支付德國方面:Fogra PSO Cert.(SheetOffset + prepress)7500 EUR + 旅費 1300 EUR + MediaWedge 400 EUR,
沒有任何課程，沒有軟體，直接來工廠看一天，當天有約一小時的工作說明，然後就直接看現場作業(心臟要夠大)，收集樣本後寄德國測量。
香港G7課程，認證，旅費，軟體約各是多少?作業天數?(看來最少兩天，一天課程 + 一天現場)
2. Primary color(CMYK) and Paper: Fogra 訂有primary目標值及寬容值(delta-E < 5)，紙張寬容值為 delta-E < 3；G7目標值應該一樣(Base on 12647-2)，寬容度?想必也一樣；請確認。 另Fogra 並不測量RGB LAB；G7 在RGB的寬容值為何?
3. 版調(TVI,NPDC?):看來G7在"方法"上有很多著墨，Fogra 對於該怎麼製版並無規範與要求或是方法指導，它只要求印出來的TVI符合規範(eg.根據紙張類別的標準曲線，寬容值為:hilight +-3%, midtone +-4%, shadow +-3%),請教G7在版調的允收數值?
4. 灰色平衡:Fogra 並沒有設定"灰色平衡"的標準值與寬容值，但是很巧妙的規範CMY TVI spread 不能超過5%，灰色平衡自然的被收斂在一個範圍；請教G7在灰色平衡的目標值與寬容值?
5. 取樣: Fogra 於 OK sheet 當中留下10張，Fogra會在其中取3張測量取其平均值做為OK sheet 數據；量產列印為五千刷，每500刷取樣5張，Fogra會在5張其中取1張測量做print run 數據；總共寄出60張樣張(10 ok sheet + 50 print run samples)；德國回報11組數據(1組ok sheet + 10 組 print run)；Print run 至少要過7組(我們11組數據全部OK)。請教G7取樣方式與數據回報。
6. 數位打樣: Fogra 檢查以下項目(紙張 delta E<3，平均<3，最大<6，primary(CMYK)<5，primary 色相差<2.5，灰色元件平均色相差<1.5)，並未看到你對G7數位打樣描述，可否補充數位樣部分；其允收數值為何?
7. 其它: 你有提到Cruve2軟體，是否為必備軟體?如果沒這個軟體，是不是就很難拿到G7?
以上，1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 � 5�� � 恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku/
210.64.17.149�3 H �z2 H Z 再補充課程內容資訊如下：
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2978/97947645.png1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.62 Safari/534.3 k�� � 恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku/
210.64.17.149�4 H ��3 H � 軟體並不是必備的，我給的教育訓練文件中有計算方式，其實郭顧問也可以嘗試按照他的公式自行撰寫軟體。1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.62 Safari/534.3 @ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1�A H ��4 H 6 感謝資料分享，待整理後再開一篇報告。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � | �� N 洪國倫[email protected] 192.168.2.1���!H F��!H n顧問您好：
感謝您撥冗回信。
學生手邊有「使用副廠墨水的epson1390」及「spectro eye」、「profilemaker 5」等軟硬體，想依照您在http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=590中的方法試作一個iccprofile，來作數位打樣工作。
但由於目前並無相關的文獻可以參考，學生有幾個點疑惑，想向顧問請教：
1.以低階噴墨印表機作數位打樣，在操作上有沒有需要特別注意的地方?例如：
(1)依照您在文章中的流程，是在PHOTOSHP中依據ISO Coated V2 的標準，將檔案轉換成CMYK型態列印，如此會不會有二次轉換而造成顏色偏差的風險?
因為坊間一般的說法是中低階的噴墨印表機呈像方式是接收RGB訊號，再經由其內部機制轉換成CMYK輸出呈像；在PHOTOSHOP的手冊中也建議直接使用 RGB的模式列印，不要轉換成CMYK列印，除非有搭配RIP使用，否則經過二次(photoshop及印表機內部)的轉換，容易造成色彩的偏差。
(2)如果是不經RIP來作打樣，像總墨量、GCR等分色參數若有調整的必要，要在那裡調整呢?可否在藉由PHOTOSHOP中的「自訂CMYK」來調整，或是在製作ICCPROFILE時，就應納入這些分色參數，分別製作不同參數設定的iccprofile?
因為根據坊間的說法，數位打樣一般是要搭配RIP的，因為如此方能對印表機取得較大的控制，才能調整如總墨量、GCR等分色參數。
2.學生使用PROFILE MAKER觀察epson原廠的印表機描述檔，發現他的色域是rgb，請問使用COLOR MUNKI所製作的EPSON1390描述檔，其色域是rgb或cmyk呢?
因為根據profile maker 的廠商建議，如果是用在直接列印，可以用內建的rgb型態的測試導表來製作；但是如果是以「打樣」為目的，則建議用cmyk型態的測試導表來製作iccprofile。
叨擾您了1�Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.1; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; Badongo 2.0.0; Tablet PC 2.0) � �� � Eddie Leung[email protected]
60.248.35.118�Q�H =�H � 郭先生:
從你的論文和迴響看來都是有ㄧ定的專業術養，回覆問題都是切中徵結點現在很少有這般正直實在的專家，希望能常常看到新的討論題目來觀察業界的真實面。
謝謝。1]Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100824 Firefox/3.6.9 ��� ( william hung[email protected] 220.136.231.41X�!H � �!H � 郭顧問您好，我想閱讀由您撰寫的一篇受密碼保護的文章：在低階噴墨印表機做數位打樣。請問要如何取得密碼呢?謝謝0�Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB0.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729) ;@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1��� H O� H h 先簡單follow個問題:
1. 費用確認:Fogra PSO 為˙7500EUR(認證)+1300EUR(旅費)+400EUR(導表)=9200EUR 約38萬TWD
G7 為 4000HK(G7企業認可)+3000HK(年費)+30000HK(課程)+10000HK(認證)+3592HK(機票x2)+8419HK(Curve2軟體)+20000TWD(住宿x2) = 約 26萬TWD
以上，Fogra PSO 比較貴，G7 比較便宜。(這算哪門子比法?)
2. Primary color(CMYK):目標值一樣(folow 12647-2,Y有變動)，寬容值一樣(Delta-5);G7多比了二次色(RGB)，寬容值一樣為Delta-5。
3. 版調:Fogra PSO TVI允收值很明確(目標值&寬容值)。G7..."in research"
4. 灰色平衡:Fogra PSO 以 CMY spread <5% 規範;
G7 有數據但未定案:
"Tentative" G7 gray balance tolerances:
–Proofer: +/-1.0 a* and b* @ 50,40,40 cmy
–Press: +/-2.0 a* and b* @ 50,40,40 cmy
5. 取樣:Fogra 取樣規定明確，G7 press run 1000 張，取樣規則不明，有否補充?
6. 數位打樣:Fogra 規定明確，G7 訓練材料未說明，有否補充?
7. 其它: Fogra 沒有工作軟體，沒有方法指導，它只在乎最終數據是不是合乎規範，只要數據合乎規範，它就可以發出"12647-2"的認證標章；
G7 是一種"印刷方法"的訓練，這種"印刷方法"重視灰色平衡，重視"visual agreement"；方法有"HR"，"HC"，SC"，"Grayfinder"， "NPDC"...
如果他們認定你有運作G7"印刷方法"的能力，就會發給你"G7 Master"標章。在這邊我會明確的認定"G7 並不等於 ISO 12647-2 認證"，雖然如果你的材料(紙張，油墨)符合12647-2的話，輸出結果會很相近Fogra PSO，但G7還是沒有發表明確的允收數據；再者，沒他們的軟體的話還真處理不來，雖然也是有可能自行開發，但開發規模比我寫的Fogra TVI 工具大太多了(我太懶了)。
再回到Fogra PSO 與 G7 的比較，其實是不應該放在一起比的，一個是數字明確的ISO 12647-2 認證；一個是重視灰色平衡與"visual agreement"的工作方法訓練；ISO 12647-2並非G7的最終目的。G7 有相對於Fogra PSO更精確的灰色平衡與調子(NPDC)的定義；但也在更精確的數字定義同時，卻沒有提出明確的允收數字，讓我覺得"G7 Master"標章的認定空間相對於Fogra PSO 是模糊的，是不明確的，要不然照說G7的定義是更精確的，項目是更多的，應該是更難通過的；但依APTEC的說法："考取PSO相對有更高的要求"，這樣的敘述是矛盾的；我只能推測G7模糊的允收空間讓它相對於PSO更容易通過。
不過再怎麼樣，有總比沒有好，我還是希望能看到台灣有更多單位拿到G7或 Fogra PSO標章，不知各位有何看法?印刷廠的看法?廣告主的看?平面設計單位的看法?歡迎交流。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � � �� � 恭麟[email protected]
210.64.17.149���H l�H �學長您太客氣了：
我稱不上是專家，算一算我正是踏入印刷業也不過這一兩年的事情，找個時間我再把G7的認證資料稍作整理，屆時再煩請學長分享。
G7與Fogra比較起來算是比較簡單的認證，他主要是看製版以及印刷兩個部份，當時我們認證的時候是請香港印刷學會先來替我們做一天的教育訓練，主要是簡介G7的由來、做法、驗證方式，接下來就是實際驗證；驗證過程大致上分兩個階段，第一階段就是做一塊版調曲線為初值的印刷版，並且上機印刷印製G7規定的樣張，其中測量P2P導表中CMYKRGB的LAB值、放墨濃度的一致性、揮平衡(僅供參考)，如果此時印刷機印出來的樣張測量都達標準，就可以將放墨數據紀錄下來，階著進行第二階段的製版，此時把樣張放乾（約2小時）測量P2P導表中的數據（當時我們有買Cruve2軟體），利用公式算出版調曲線，將版調曲線輸入CTP再輸出一塊印版上機印刷，此時所有的數據包含灰平衡都要嚴格控制達到標準，然後實際印製1,000張，監考人員會抽樣張回去測量，大約過1至2星期就會知道結果，以上概述～1}Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.59 Safari/534.3 ��� � 恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku/
210.64.17.149��D!H _�C!H �郭顧問好：
一段時間沒上來逛逛，就發現郭顧問題了這麼多問題 @@a ~ 以下小弟盡量以我所知道的部分回答：
1.之前我僅提供G7認證時的報價，Fogra的我比較不清楚要花多少，比較的話可以把所有花費依照當時匯率換成台幣。
2.之前我說過在認證上G7比起Fogra簡單，因為他只針對最後的結果取樣，如果達到標準(灰階以及CMYRGB色差再5以內就算過關)
3.G7取樣方式是從1,000張樣張當中主考官隨機從上中下層抽取，大約抽五張。
4.之前所執行的G7認證並沒有認證數位打樣的部分，數位打樣認證與印刷似乎是分開的。
5.如果不用軟體用他們提供的繪圖紙以及他們教的方法，大約在半個小時內可以徒手畫出版調曲線，因為我親自做過，一樣是(太懶了)所以當初有買軟體。
6.之前我有提過，認證沒有好壞 ~ 只要大家都能以比較科學的方式達到ISO標準，我認為這至少是印刷業的一大進步(雖然國外已經行之有年)。
7.我個人認為不用重複拿不一樣的證照，不管是Fogra、Ugra、G7....什麼認證，拿了學了就要確實落實比較重要。
以上
Regards,
恭麟1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.63 Safari/534.3 �@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1� �!H \Ԡ!H �非常謝謝你的資料，只是提一下自己的看法。
就 color data set 來看，其實GRACoL 2006已經非常接近 ISO Coated V2(ECI)；如果G7可以清楚的宣告"G7 on GRACoL 2006"的數據規則，我幾乎可以將它與ISO 12647-2畫上等號。
目前我看到 Fogra PSO 的標章時，我比較有概念"它"應該長甚麼樣子；但當我看到G7標章時，我比較沒有概念它的"deviation"會到甚麼樣子，這部分的數據規則還有勞學弟補充了。1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � ��� � Eddie Leung[email protected]
114.45.161.77�}PH UEOH 朱先生是是這一位專家?
沈氏藝術印刷股份有限公司
網址 ： http://www.shen.com.tw
聯絡人 ： 朱恭麟先生
電話 ： (886-2) 2270-6161 (內線 130)
傳真 ： (886-2) 2270-6110
G7認可資格有效期至:30/06/20111XMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 �@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1��_H �^H . 是的，沒錯。專家要來露一下臉嗎?1_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 � ��� � 恭麟[email protected]
112.78.81.141��!H ��!H �謝謝郭顧問詳細的整哩，看完這篇資料我也有相當的收穫，很多數據當時我在看的時候還沒有這麼清楚的認知，如今看了郭顧問的分析就更清楚了；而印刷廠學習這些方法使印刷品質更穩定，這也算是印刷業的進步 ~ 至於允收標準的部分，我在挖看看當初交券時考試單位定義的一些測量規範，再加以補充 ~ 並請郭顧問看看這些規範是否合理？1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.63 Safari/534.3 C@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1I�"H �!H R Hello, 要不要貢獻一下你們拿G7的心得?我們也在評估要不要拿G7.1Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/533.17.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.1 Safari/533.17.8 � ��� a 朱恭麟[email protected]
210.64.17.149_H �& H �學長您好：
好久不見，學弟目前遇到一些問題希望尋求解決方案，希望可以請學長指導一下，問題如下：
1.現階段工司以Epson9900生產一些個人化產品，使用GMG Color Server並以Fogra27作為色彩管理的目標，客戶通常世一些攝影師或者個人用戶以數位相機拍攝的影像檔案要輸出，一般來說我們會把影像由RGB轉為CMYK再由色彩管理流程輸出海報，但一直以來都感覺藍天跟螢幕比較起來都會變成紫色的，或許透過修色的動作可以改善，但是這樣就太不自動化了，不知道有沒有可以載入自定曲線並進行影像自動修色的軟體或者解決方案？ 謝謝！！
Regards,
學弟 朱恭麟 敬啓1Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/533.17.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.1 Safari/533.17.8 ��� � 恭麟[email protected]http://blog.yam.com/koku/
210.64.17.149�3 H �x2 H �郭顧問好：
根據您的問題就我所知的回應如下：
1.支付費用明細如下：
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4425/15653787.png
機票費用一人次抓1,400HK共需兩人次，住宿費用一人一天抓10,000TWD，約共40,000TWD
2.第二及第三個問題這邊提供官方教育訓練資料供參考，如果有任何問題可以再討論：
http://freakshare.net/files/rsauyz8d/03-G7_Train_0507.pdf.html
以上
Regards,1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/6.0.472.62 Safari/534.3 ?�� � 朱恭麟[email protected]
210.64.17.149�T"H 8 !H o 不管甚麼認證，透過這些認證建立起色彩管理的標準與概念，才是認證的價值所在。1Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; zh-tw) AppleWebKit/533.17.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.1 Safari/533.17.8 �� @ � a
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1kVH � H 你說 Fogra PSO 好搞還是你的問題好搞? Fogra 有明確的目標值與寬容值，我會想辦法達成；你的問題可有較明確數據?藍天變紫?你顯示器的表現能力如何?校正過的能力如何?跟輸出的差異如何?有數據可遵循嗎?
OK, 很多情況其實只是要"感覺"而已。
自動化修色軟很難有一流的作品，"感覺"不可能被自動化。
可以試一下這家的產品:http://www.klearvision.com/
"感覺"還可以，但不期望有一流的作品。
或是你的"差異感覺"是可被規則化的，那麼一個Photoshop action 就解決了。
另我認為個人化輸出無須遵守Fogra，應以輸出設備能力自行定義最好的色彩與調子。不過Fogra調子定義還不錯，用一下也無無妨。0_Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100722 Firefox/3.6.8 GTB7.1 ��@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.2.1h-T!H ��R!H �感謝回應
再想了解的是，沈氏在通過G7 Master標章後，在實際工作上有甚麼變化?
以科億為例，通過Fogra PSO後最大的改變(及好處)就是TVI曲線；經由這組曲線，感覺印出來的調子(反差)及灰色平衡都比以前好；數位樣，軟打樣及分色(RGB2CMYK)也理所當然以ISO 官方的ICC Profile:ISO Coated V2(ECI)為目的(destination)。作業流程更加明確清楚，效率也就提升，這是Fogra之後帶來的好處。但說要一直保持12647-2狀態還是有困難，最大的困難在於台灣的紙廠未能穩定的供應符合標準的紙張，油墨好像還好，TVI控制也都可以，紙張真的就沒辦法了。另外還是要再提一下，iOne 在(devices agreement) 一直是個問題。
不知沈氏在通過G7後，在作業上有甚麼變化?帶來的好處是甚麼?數位樣及分色的destination依循ISO官方嗎?或是其他標準(如Japan color 2001或廠內自訂)?
謝謝回應1aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 GTB7.1 � ) like Gecko trackback l � fh�@+ % metal clock mechanism Ahttps://www.change.org/p/adrian-fachadbnq-clock-inserts-wholesale 45.59.69.202�\�Z bQ[�Z � <strong>metal clock mechanism</strong>
Purchase amazx �� � J印刷標準次規格草擬::Print by Number::工具篇 | Fred Kuo :: Blog +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1025 192.168.2.1`�K(H ?(H � [...] (次規格)工作範圍目前先限定在 ISO 12647-2 平印類；數字規則僅兩個項目：TVI (with Spread)及主色色彩值。 [...]12The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.0.1pingback� @ & T
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1-�0pJ �/pJ � iso coated v2 非adobe 內建，請至
<a href="http://eci.org/doku.php?id=en:downloads" rel="nofollow">http://eci.org/doku.php?id=en:downloads </a>
下載
PS. looking for: eci_offset_2009.zip1jMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/535.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/14.0.835.163 Safari/535.1 S�� � 恭麟[email protected]
112.78.66.221���'H e��'H �把Print by Number的理念用更簡單的方式推行到印刷產業的各個角落比起鼓勵大家去拿認證要來的重要的多；因為台灣印刷業的老闆總是錙銖必較，畢竟拿個個認證的花費不算少，也不是每間印刷公司願意負擔的，如果客戶能了解並接受以數據作為驗收依據，而不是按照專業人士的經驗作為驗收的依據，而不論傳統或者數位印刷業者能依照標準ICC數據(ISO Fogra39L.....等)去印刷並時時進行回饋維持色彩的一致性，我想不論在品質穩定或者流程的便利性都會有很大的提升，小弟目前使用GMG搭配數位印刷機印製以Fogra39L作為標準，約每三日進行線性回饋，平均色差控制在1.5左右最大色差不超過6，每次回饋時間不超過5分鐘，或許其他業者使用不同的RIP，但只要願意花時間去做，差異也不會太大。1tMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/7.0.517.44 Safari/534.7 �� LFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » Color by Number::軟打樣再探討 +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1275 192.168.1.16xcdJ �?bdJ ! [...] for part II… Like [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback "�S � Kung Lin Chu[email protected]
60.251.163.73�}�LJ ,E�LJ M 郭顧問好：
請教一下日立那支等管售價大約是多少阿？？1�Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_7; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/10.0.648.151 Safari/534.16 .@ T �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1�I�LJ N�LJ [ 在這裡
http://www.kphoto.com.tw/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=AHJ0071&Category=593571aMozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; zh-TW; rv:1.9.2.16) Gecko/20110319 Firefox/3.6.16 GTB7.1 S ��� � 恭麟[email protected]
210.64.17.149`Z(H �!(H �謝謝郭顧問的回應：
其實郭顧問提出的構想很棒！！GMG確實不便宜，一套GMG Color Server約莫50-60萬，一臺數位印刷機買下來也需要百來萬，GMG的確是一套很棒的色彩管理軟體，甚至家裡的噴墨印表機也可作色彩管理，但是單單這套軟體的價格就是不低的門檻；因此我也想過郭顧問提的構想，是不是有期他的方案較低的成本，做到像郭顧問說得連家理的噴墨印表機+副廠墨水(我1cc買1元)，也能達到一定的效果，期待郭顧問分享方法，我也很想再自己家裡玩，或許Print by number的概念另一個重大意義是；有一個方法能讓大家達到一定且一致的效果，但是不須要花費大把的鈔票！！1}Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_8; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/7.0.517.44 Safari/534.7 �X jackson[email protected] 192.168.1.2Y��$O ټ�$O B 使用Eizo ColorNavigator 會更精準有效率
請參考
謝謝1lMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/31.0.1650.57 Safari/537.36 �@ Y
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.2ˎ�$O KV�$O 不好說，這裡指的是 iPad 顯示 Fogra Media Wedge CMYK V2 (on Fogra 39)的能力，尚未涉及校色軟體；Eizo ColorNavigator 應不至於使用在 iPad 上。這篇其實發得很籠統，我應該再發一篇我如何收數據的方法才能有更清楚的討論。1HMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/25.0 X :� T ttoo[email protected] 111.254.147.126��pJ NpJ t iso coated v2 是另外下載的描述檔嗎？因為我軟體中沒有找到。內建中是可以被找到的嗎？1sMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_7_1) AppleWebKit/534.48.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Safari/534.48.3 u@ �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1 � YJ ���XJ �這次用的是只有兩百多色塊的TC2.83導表，而非900多色塊的TC9.18導表；檢驗規則為較舊的Fogra Mediastandard Print 2006 規範，而非iso 12647-7規範，而且色差採DE94的"次規格"計算方式。次規格的想法是希望"擴大參與" Print by Number 的工作方式，請參考http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1124
至於工作方法其是就是非常制式的icc工作方式:
1. 在PhotoShop輸出TC2.38(RGB)導表，需注意將Photoshop 及印表機的色彩管理關閉。
2. 由Profilemaker 測量輸出品並產生icc profile。
3. 將 profile 放入系統以供Phootoshop取用。
4. 由photoshop列印Fogra CMYK media wedge V2，這次記得開啟Photoshop色彩管理，選用上階段產生的profile，採"絕對色度制"輸出，印表機的色彩管理維持關閉。
5.由measure tool取得lab數據後上傳http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/fograproof/後得此"次規格"報告。
有什麼問題可再談。1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:2.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0.1 2�w ?印刷標準次規格草擬::Print by Number : Fred Kuo :: Blog +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1001 192.168.2.1���?J 1�?J W [...] Test Form，取樣規則及軟體工具的組合與開發(盡可能是 Open [...]12The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.0.4pingback J� � Kung Lin Chu[email protected]
60.251.163.73�
YJ 4�YJ � 謝謝郭顧問；我大致瞭解了，我會測試一下我們公司的產品再予您分享！！
學弟 朱恭麟 敬啓1vMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_7) AppleWebKit/534.24 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/11.0.696.71 Safari/534.24 ��� d J數位打樣次規格草擬::Print by Number::工具篇 : Fred Kuo :: Blog +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1163 192.168.2.1@[@J �@J � [...] Wedge 的檢測報告；不過這裡的報告是依ISO-12647-7的規範下去檢測的，我們的"次規格"是依 “Mediastandard Print [...]12The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.0.4pingback � � � Kung Lin Chu[email protected] 60.245.68.25W��XJ �b�XJ � 郭顧問您好，再這篇次規格的測試中您僅透過TC9.18導表即可達到Fogra的標準，想請教您如何輸出檔案取得測試導表並測量ICC？謝謝！！
學弟 朱恭麟 敬啓1vMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_7) AppleWebKit/534.24 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/11.0.696.71 Safari/534.24 � �� y LFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » Color by Number::軟打樣再探討 +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1275 192.168.1.1>�dJ ��dJ � [...] 之前發過一篇軟打樣的報告，這次因DispcalGUI的新版本(0.7.0.7)多了一些功能，趁這個機會對軟打樣著個題目在工具能力及檢驗方式上作一些探討。 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback� �� LFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » Color by Number::軟打樣再探討 +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1275 192.168.1.1��dJ y�dJ � [...] 之前發過一篇軟打樣的報告，這次因DispcalGUI的新版本(0.7.0.7)多了一些功能，趁這個機會對軟打樣著個題目在工具能力及檢驗方式上作一些探討。 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingbackQ�� � B數位打樣次規格::Print by Number::案例2 : Fred Kuo :: Blog +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1196 192.168.2.1�p@J �c@J s[...] 這次使用的墨水為原廠價1/4左右的副廠墨水，通過Efi的能力，也順利的進入次規格規範，分數系統(86.92)也只稍低於原廠墨的(87.73)一點點；進一步要求 ISO 12647-7的能力，也能順利達成。這裡給一些墨水用量大的單位一個參考，副廠墨水經過良好的設定也能有好的色彩品質。 [...]12The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.0.4pingback� �
Peter Tsai [email protected] http://www.meganano-tech.com/
60.251.163.73��yoJ �xoJ Dear Fred,
I am very happy to discuss with you. I can let you know Kung Lin is working in my company who is our color management engineer, now he is familar with EFI/GMG/Oris/Starproof/Starplate/ONYX/Caldera after he joined my company this March. He is real great to me!1LMozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/5.0; MAAU) C�i � PFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » 再推一下印刷"次規格" +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1302 192.168.1.1&>ouJ �nuJ Y [...] 印刷"次規格"說明:http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1001 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback F�j PFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » 再推一下印刷"次規格" +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1302 192.168.1.1^>ouJ �nuJ \ [...] 印刷"次規格"工具篇:http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1025 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback F�k D PFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » 再推一下印刷"次規格" +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1302 192.168.1.1p>ouJ �nuJ \ [...] 印刷"次規格"報告篇:http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1092 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback � �002>n\�Z �5[�Z � <strong>essential oil for stress</strong>
Finally, get now really pure purest organic essential oils you can get, and available now and currently available. Buy it today!spam=Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT ��6.1; Trident/7.0; rv:11.0b@ i �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.2�� O _ O �你好，同意你的看法，我們單位四年前做 Fogra PSO，去年做了 G7, 但廠內還是維持Fogra 工作方式，相對起來，G7 雖然顯得先進(動態灰平衡, NDPC,HR.HC....)但 Fogra TVI 的操作方式相當明確，我們在執行上更為踏實，四年來一直落實執行Fogra 工作方式 ，請參考 2011-05-12 數據
<img src="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/asset/press20110512.png" alt="Press20110512" />
2013-06-10 數據
<img src="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/asset/press20130610.png" alt="press20130640" />
G7要落實下來目前對我們來說還是蠻心虛的。
有關 Fogra PSO 與 G7 還可參考下列幾篇:
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1487#more-1487
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1407
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1402
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1382
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=987
http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=9591HMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:21.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0 g k
�>+ % natural gas fire pit glass http://pit-burners.webnode.com/ 45.59.69.202K\�Z �[�Z � <strong>natural gas fire pit glass</strong>
Get parts for an amazing Fire pit lava rock currently available and in stock in addition at the best price today and tommorrow only!spam=Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Trident/7.0; rv:11.0) like Gecko trackback � � �H�?+ % essential oil for stress [https://kidblog.org/class/essential-oil-recipes-for-anxiety/posts/czndc9yjbr21k26pp91dxxrgy 45.59.69.2k�� � EFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » Print by Number::光源篇-2 +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1518 192.168.1.2j!P�N ��N�N � [...] 之前2011三月 24t發表過光源篇，當中的長庚生技全光譜燈管已經壽終正寢，算算也用了將近兩年。 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback 2@ 1
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1K!l�L ��j�L v謝謝建議，您能提出這五點，跟"非專業"好像搭不上來，就算不是，也總是個有"識"之士。
不過就對一個每天要實際進行生產的私人企業，你能期望他們做到什麼程度?願意做到這個程度該給他一個"讚"了!其實您提的除了isis外大概都做過了(sort of)，就是要不要再精進而已! 真要做下來:印機每小時成本要四五千，再加上紙張油墨版材人力時間，大量的數據收集分析的及無明確標的的不斷回饋修正! 就算再精進個兩個TVI，對一小時上萬轉的機械運作，兩個TVI的跳動是經常的事，在有些地方看到五個TVI的跳動也不用太驚呀。這樣估算下來這個目標(平滑度到???)就暫且Hold住了，不過還是謝謝你的建議，容我們行有餘力，再漸行精進。
然後我還是要提到ISO訂出寬容值的意義，如前所提 "接受寬容值也是一個施行標準化的重要部分" ；台灣印刷產業的標準化意識也才剛冒個頭，還望"有識之士"們共同促成，多鼓勵，少責難，等局面形成，再要求精進，還有很長的路要走!1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 %
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1��w�L �"k�L �<strong>G7對於紙張作灰平衡校正應該是對單一紙張有效一但印刷濃度增加灰平衡應該有問題？</strong>
1. G7 的 Curve 2 軟體對任何紙張的灰色平衡都有效。當濃度增加時對Curve2軟體來講，會產生一條新的NDPC及新的CMY灰色組合，灰平衡仍然有效；但G7並未交代在印刷過程中，當印機狀態變化時，如何有效率的判定印機狀態還在寬容值內(別跟我說修要幾個ΔL*或幾個Δf*，印機師傅當場跟你翻臉)。
<strong>GRACoL的 ICC用來對應轉換RGB的灰色還不錯。</strong>
2. 理稐上 RGB灰色轉到任何CMYK得到的灰色都會一樣(Lab值一樣但CYMK不一樣)，問題還是印機的控制有沒有到位，跟用哪個ICC無關。1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 &
�� read more =http://www.ratemyarea.com/places/best-pest-control-of--164776 192.168.1.2M�SQ �{�SQ n <strong>read more...</strong>
Color by Number::è»æ樣åæ¢è¨ II « Fred Kuo :: Blog...1
PHP/5.3.16 trackback @ J
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1ۋ��L ����L _ 尊重經驗，
在沒有看到印機TVI及滿版色度資料前，這邊不好再有評論。1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 ;
w�k � Fred Kuo :: Blog » Archive +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1407 192.168.1.1���L ��ڸL � [...] 提到"想法"，這裡有個"次規格"的想法，是一個無需任何費用的練習方法；開始有想法的人，或許可以試試看。 Like Unlike [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback a�
� Mirchle[email protected]
114.45.183.22X� �L ؚ �L �如果數位打樣的標準用的是 F39, 印刷機也應該複製F39就不會有色差的問題。常常有雜誌出版社說套用印刷廠的 ICC列印出來結果和付樣不同要求要提供AI檔修色，這是不可能的國外來的是PDF 1.3 embeded F39(輪轉機機的印刷廠常常是這樣讓人覺得不是很用心在工作)。 既然已經知道印刷廠的ICC不同於F39請問可以用程試算出補正差異的ICC放在 RIP自動換算使用?1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 � �x
� UFred Kuo :: Blog » Archive » Print by Number::台灣印刷唯一雙證書 +http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1487 192.168.1.1W�[�L �N�L �[...] How I got it? 做了些什麼才能得到證書(資格書)? For Fogra PSO: 1. 約一個鐘頭的時間稽核員跟各部門工作人員面談，了解各部門軟硬體操作狀況。 2. 稽核員到印前部門觀察顯示器校色及觀色光源狀況。 3. 稽核員於印前部門發出 Color management assignment，確定印前部門了解 ICC profile 如何運作。 4. 出數位樣。(依Fogra media wedge CMYK 檢測) 5. 確認 CTP的 QC 工作方式。 6. 稽核員到印刷部門稽核印刷工作。 7. 印刷機宣告 OK print (取走10張OK print， 取其中3張平均做為 OK print 成績) 8. 開始 5000 刷 print run(每500刷抽一樣本，至少 要70%符合稽核規則) 9. 以上印刷樣寄回德國經兩個單位測量(Fogra and bvdm) 10. 以上工作於一天內完成。 11.  約三星期收到成績單，若成績合格即取得證書。 參考http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=149 [...]10The Incutio XML-RPC PHP Library -- WordPress/3.1pingback@
�
Administrator[email protected]http://60.250.156.142�L�L z�J�L R<strong>1.在檔案直接修正Dot Gain
2.ICC 轉換
3.Dot Gain ,ICC 和併使用轉換</strong>
你的方法都有可能，但不知你願意花多少精神去測試，即使成了，那叫事倍功半，也有可能測試不成，那就徒勞無功了。還是老話:將印機拉到標準狀態才是終究的方法。
<strong>*連續3個月不同型式的Fogra 39 Chart印刷結果檢出誤差過大。(就算是有被認證的印刷廠要做到相對的穩定也真的要靠自己運氣—工作經驗)</strong>
就我所知，台灣只一家廠拿過 Fogra，不知你指的是哪家？1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1m /�L ��-�L �其實印刷機制也不過就是一連串的視覺上的物理量操作，都是算得出來的，哪些地方做得到，哪些地方做不到，都可以在數字的系統下解釋得清清楚楚；您的問題是也可以被處理得來的，這要看你們各個環節能嚴謹到甚麼程度。
我這邊就先簡單回應:
<strong>如果數位打樣的標準用的是 F39, 印刷機也應該複製F39就不會有色差的問題。</strong>
要一小時上萬轉的純機械運作去複製某個規格是非常困難的，我們只能努力的將它控制在Fogra的寬容值內，這點是做得到的。既然提到寬容值，色差就難免還是會有，就一個實際的觀點，接受寬容值也是一個施行標準化的重要部分，而不是毫無依據的不斷要求。另外紙張增白劑(OBA)已在ISO 15339 提出應對方式；觀色光源(D50 vs. 日光燈)部分目前還是個難題。
<strong>常常有雜誌出版社說套用印刷廠的 ICC列印出來結果和付樣不同要求要提供AI檔修色，這是不可能的</strong>
如本篇提到的狀況，請試試讓印刷機進入Fogra規格，或許就不用修色了。
<strong>國外來的是PDF 1.3 embeded F39(輪轉機機的印刷廠常常是這樣讓人覺得不是很用心在工作)。</strong>
如果是輪轉機的話，<del datetime="2012-09-20T04:09:25+00:00">在Fogra 定義是 Fogra 41</del>。Fogra 41 is for web offset MFC paper , For type1 paper 依然用 Fogra 39，但TAC要用 300%。
<strong>既然已經知道印刷廠的ICC不同於F39請問可以用程試算出補正差異的ICC放在 RIP自動換算使用?</strong>
理論上可以，但不知印刷廠的ICC嚴謹程度如何？可否被檢驗？我還是認為將印機帶入標準狀態才是終究的方法，而不是將標準資料計算進入一個非標準狀態來彌補非標準狀態的誤差；即使行得通，也已經輸掉了材料，人力，溝通，處理，時間上的一些成本。1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1
� �
� Mirchle[email protected]
111.248.47.23� J�L �;=�L A這些意見是國外廣告製作公司的反應，如果印刷廠像Admin這樣肯定回覆而且實際的履行 F39,以上這些都不會是檢討的問題。改善計畫還在紙上作業最主要是印刷廠提出的ICC是有疑問存在*的不被國外接受，被接受後會有幾個選項來測試作為轉檔修正的數據
1.在檔案直接修正Dot Gain
2.ICC 轉換
3.Dot Gain ,ICC 和併使用轉換
PS. 大部分的檔案都是F39，印刷廠必須將它轉到自己的色域 ex. F41 讓印刷結果落在Fogra的寬容值內,大部分的印刷廠都沒這樣的國際認知,廣告主也只能這樣要求檔案修正來得更容易。
*連續3個月不同型式的Fogra 39 Chart印刷結果檢出誤差過大。(就算是有被認證的印刷廠要做到相對的穩定也真的要靠自己運氣---工作經驗)1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 ��� 7 Janis Angermayr[email protected]://www.squidoo.com/top-rated-electric-pressure-cooker 192.168.1.2~�� O �N� O 厉害！厉害！0CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0.1 � i�s</a> payday loan no teletrack <a href="https://cashnow.cars" rel="nofollow">money lender</a>spam�Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/61.0.3163.100 YaBrow ) </cashnow.cars" rel="nofollow">loan lender �
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Administrator[email protected]http://118.160.171.129P�0�S �/�S �你好，
1) FanGraph 中 CMY 或 K ideal 曲線的點如何取?
從P2P導表量測，取第4行(K)最下面一格(K100)的濃度值去找到FanGraph右邊最接近的濃度值，對應的curve 即其ideal curve 。
CMY curve 同樣意思，取第5行(CMY)最下面一格(CMY100)的濃度值去對應FanGraph。
2) 研讀 G7 How To 有辦法算出 CMYK 應調整多少的值（像是你第5點提到的 Calibration Using IDEAlink® Curve (Curve 軟體使用)
基本上要做G7還是得透過他門的Curve軟體；我自己經驗，照著 G7 How To 做一趟FanGraph 要4小時，還是得不出好的結果，不過到是可以把觀念搞清楚。1HMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:42.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/42.0 * s@ / �
Administrator[email protected]http://118.160.171.129��0�S <�/�S �你好，思考方向正確！
我再補充幾點：
1. (..大圖輸出機rip歸零不做任何icc校正...)：正確一點說法是在基本線性完成的基礎上去修正灰元件的CMY調整，你所謂的歸零如果沒有線性基礎，推算值與實際色彩值的匹配會對不上。
2. 主色(CMY)的色角度還是不能太離譜，致於要多大的差異才會造成不能接受的品質? ....這是另一個有趣的題目，我會再找時間做。
3. 如文中提，我試著找出一個 "省時省錢不出錯 " 的作法：( 基本線性+灰色(C50MY40)位置+不要太離譜的CMY色角度) 就應該可以滿足85%以上的要求。
4. 有成果也請回報。1HMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:42.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/42.0 �@ I
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1݊��L ����L �謝謝。
早期我也是從印機取得ICC再往前發佈以形成一個色彩管理環境，但我真的沒把握今天的ICC跟明天的ICC會不會一樣?
甚至第一刷的ICC跟第1000刷的ICC 會不會一樣?如果不一樣(肯定會不一樣)，那ICC profile的允收規範是如何?好像不見任何單位發布過。還有這樣的色彩管理環境連結只限制在目前現有客戶，新的客戶進來就得在這個不被信任的ICC下再做一次心虛的色彩溝通。
也是個機緣下開始做 Fogra， 發現觀念轉一下:正確的ICC只有一個，把我的生產設備往那個方向帶就對了!設備狀態會變，ISO有清楚規範允許變動的寬容值，努力控制到位就好了，而連結對象，理論上就是全世界了。問題不可能100%解決，但至少有兩個廠給我這樣的回應：進步很大。
<strong>關於G7對於紙張作灰平衡校正應該是對單一紙張有效 指的是不能通(適)用於類似的紙張相對於Fogra 的Type I, TypeII ,Type III 的紙張明確規範。</strong>
正確，
我之前講的"G7 的 Curve 2 軟體對任何紙張的灰色平衡都有效"指的是Curvr 2 會對每種紙張產生其CMY灰色組合，所以灰平衡都有效(dot%a*,b*/paper a*,b*)；至於能不能以類別的方式適用於相似的紙張，G7並無交代，但理論上可執行，也就是允收(寬容值)規範；只是G7灰平衡允收用Δf的方式，操作很不方便，不若 Fogra 以 CMY spread <5 來的直接。
<strong>(Lab值一樣但CYMK不一樣)如果以RGB Blue的天空或是黑白圖檔在 GRACoL的 ICC所轉換的顏色就比較接近一般設計喜好的灰色和不偏紅的Blue—-實務的經驗。</strong>
當量化能力不足時，我們尊重經驗。1JMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 :
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� Mirchle[email protected] 111.248.51.200���L VEz�L B像Admin這樣正直的把問題導向正確重點在國內的產業上實在不多見，大半都看到的是把印刷廠跟設計的產生的問題複雜化在混亂中循環問題依然存在還是無解。
再補充關於上面提到TVI平滑度的問題只適合在初次使用為了求取正確的 Compensation Curve,在往後就可以從版材上檢核和平日的印件上的導表測量3,25,50,75,95% 的dot gain做到簡易有效的管理。
關於G7對於紙張作灰平衡校正應該是對單一紙張有效 指的是不能通(適)用於類似的紙張相對於Fogra 的Type I, TypeII ,Type III 的紙張明確規範。
(Lab值一樣但CYMK不一樣)如果以RGB Blue的天空或是黑白圖檔在 GRACoL的 ICC所轉換的顏色就比較接近一般設計喜好的灰色和不偏紅的Blue----實務的經驗。1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 ��;
� Mirchle[email protected] 111.248.51.200� ��L �Nz�L �Fogra 41 is for web offset MFC paper , For type1 paper 依然用 Fogra 39，但TAC要用 300%。
我的意見是 Fogra 39，但TAC要用 270% Gradation 還要再作視覺調整。(如果只是單一的檔案調整就是異數，當在實際印刷時未調整的檔案的黑版網點面積較小現場的印刷工程師就會慣性地加重黑版的印刷濃度，TAC 270的檔案就會過黑。) 也就是要印刷自己對於印刷的檔案都要處理過才會有最佳化的印刷條件。1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 �! & 恭麟[email protected]
60.251.163.73b^j�J �%i�J C 請教顧問，這次測試的屬於Pigment還是Dye的墨水呢？1uMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_8) AppleWebKit/535.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/15.0.874.121 Safari/535.2 �@ P johnson[email protected] 192.168.1.2�x�*O `@�*O e 可以再把新的dot curve ABCDE的 tone value
用數字說明(21 steps)會比較容易理解。1lMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/31.0.1650.63 Safari/537.36 �@ � �
Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.2�ΞYQ v��YQ 你好
請先參考這裡 http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/?p=1686
是不是能依照上述網頁方是將你的設備現狀讓我知道，
另請告知3個參數
1. 亮度 (cd/m^2)
2. 色溫
3. Photoshop CMYK 設定
我們先了解數據，再來看看有甚麼可能的方法。1HMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/29.0 � ��� � Livia[email protected] 192.168.1.2-�YQ �͛YQ �Fred Kuo您好，
冒昧打擾您，我想請問您使用discalGUI軟體校色的經驗。
看到您校正完的結果，最大色差出現在A1(C100處)、A7(Y100)處，
我個人經驗也是如此，因此想請教您一些細節。
我目前使用eye one pro，使用軟體有i1 profiler、discalGUI，螢幕EIZO EV系列。
由於使用i1 proiler校正無法得到平順的階調，所以改用其他校色軟體，
我無法確定是否為硬體問題，因為我的eye one pro是二手購入，以前使用別台eye one是不會有不準的問題。
discalGUI校正結果有很好的層次感，但是顏色稍沉，四原色也就不夠亮，
以黃色來說，Y100可能就會變成 Y100 M10的效果。
不知道是否有解決方法呢?1mMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/35.0.1916.114 Safari/537.36 G
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111.248.49.12 I-�L �w �L �在2002年時這些問題要廠商解決但是儀器設備和概念全無的條件下配合度接近零就不用再談完成度了,跟國外的打樣往返中告訴我要參閱 Atona Test Suite 就可以做到容許的誤差範圍內。一開始從油墨設定到版材的選擇因為有成本價差就是問題了,最難應該是版材的補正曲線(算出的數值輸出數次校正後還要經過印刷機的印刷),如果當時印刷廠有專業的認知客戶就不會有參與學習的空間。1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 ���
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111.248.41.15��c�L 1wb�L J 剛出來\Curve 3
http://blog.chromix.com/2012/10/announcing-curve3.html1AMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:16.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/16.0 �* F Wen[email protected] 36.234.249.2108�/�S �T.�S ?最近我也在研究 G7 校正的相關議題，但我遇到很多問題，希望您能夠幫助我
1) FanGraph 中 CMY 或 K ideal 曲線的點如何取得
2) 研讀 G7 How To 有辦法算出 CMYK 應調整多少的值（像是你第5點提到的 Calibration Using IDEAlink® Curve (Curve 軟體使用)
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� Mirchle[email protected]
111.248.46.80b�h�L "�[�L � 關於G7的問題並不是很清楚大份處理都是Fogra 39 再現性的問題，G7對於紙張作灰平衡校正應該是對單一紙張有效一但印刷濃度增加灰平衡應該有問題？
GRACoL的 ICC用來對應轉換RGB的灰色還不錯。1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 o�%
� Mirchle[email protected]
111.248.46.80��h�L W�[�L �看到TVI的數值用雖然是在容許度用非專業的直覺看來曲線的平滑度可以再調整對印刷機的穩定性應該是會有助益的。
會造成不平滑的幾個推測
1.CTP跟版材的適性調整(確實的Linear)
2.沖版機穩定性
3.取樣是否正確(Linear Step 排列方式 每500張一抽10張平均計算)
4.Dot Gain Compensation Curve是否正確平滑輸出後數值的正確度
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有關於g7的運用, 我經驗是, 在實際生產時, 不像是實驗般完美, 及具重覆性. 這灰平衡上的設定, 只需在生產時, 一點點的變動, 例如換膠布, 這一點點的灰平衡設定便已失效了. 若每次都再改數據, 亦是沒可能. 所以我認為, 以目前的印刷業來說, 生產難以完全達到G7的數據, 只能是作為目標. 仍需努力.1AMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:21.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0 �
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� Mirchle[email protected] 111.248.45.227�CM�L L�L i檔案修正的動作都是在國外完成，不會像Admin形容得如此困難只要印刷廠在不正確的狀態下保持穩定就是知難行易得事情，倒過來說校正過的是一直處在不穩定的狀況下就是事倍功半。( 國外的 PreMedia 就是在提供各種製作條件的檔案,output many the same color 當然收費也不便宜)
台灣只一家廠拿過 Fogra
那也是過去的歷史並不是持續進行的工作，認證只是當下的送審印刷品，倒不如廠內的工作者都有ISO 123647 的觀念PSO的精神來得更實際。(被認證的印刷廠也包含G7和其他)1CMozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/15.0.1 @
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Administrator[email protected]http:// 192.168.1.1l�Y�L ,�L�L ^這裡提到一個重點:<strong>機器要穩定</strong>；要有穩定的機器狀態才有可能被有效的管理，即使機器在不正確的狀態下保持穩定也同樣可以被管哩，但我還是要提出來:這個不正確狀態還是要有所規範，簡單講，如果連CMYK滿版色度值都不在Fogra寬容值內，那就怎麼修都回不來了。
台灣只一家廠拿過 Fogra 確實是歷史，Fogra 有效期是兩年，所以自今年起沒有任何台灣廠商列入Fogra 有效名單，但就如同你說的，"倒不如廠內的工作者都有ISO 123647 的觀念PSO的精神來得更實際"。我認為他們確實把Fogra 的實質留住了。以下隨機挑幾個數據供您參考:
2011-06-17 數據
<img src="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/asset/Fogra-20110617.png" alt="Fogra20110617" />
2012-02-08 數據
<img src="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/asset/Fogra-20120208.png" alt="0208" />
2012-08-17 數據
<img src="http://www.fredkuo.idv.tw/wordpress/asset/Fogra-20120817.png" alt="0817" />
基本上每個月都要收一次數據以確認機器維持在Fogra狀態。
提到認證，這裡順便要提一下:G7與Fogra要算不同層次的要求，最大差別就在穩定度的要求；G7 基本上沒有穩定度的要求，你只要湊足三組能符合Curve2軟體的p2p數據送到香港就拿得到G7資格書了(非認證書，Qualification, not Certification)他不管你印刷中的第500張,第1000張的數據已經飄到哪裡去了；相對於Fogra，德國稽核員要在現場收集5000刷樣本(每500刷一抽)，這些樣本必須符合稽核規則才可能拿到證書(Certification)。就我經驗，這穩定度的要求遠比單純將數據控制到位要困難得多。所以能拿到Fogra要去拿G7並不難，拿到G7的廠未必有拿Fogra的能力，而這家拿過Fogra的廠也確實拿到了G7，不過廠內依然維持Fogra方式運作；G7名堂多，反而造成控管麻煩，不如Fogra操作單純，而且我還是認為Fogra的調子表現要比G7好看。
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